Meet your host, Cassidy

In this episode of the Finance Girlies Podcast, host Cassidy shares her financial and professional journey. Cassidy recounts her transition from a struggling college student with debt to a successful freelance personal finance copywriter earning over $100,000. She and Emily discuss the importance of financial planning, overcoming early career challenges, and the role of a supportive community. Cassidy highlights her experience with budgeting, managing student loans, and making career decisions like pursuing an MBA. Listen in on Cassidy shares how increasing her income and taking calculated risks have transformed her financial life. 

01:10 - Cassidy's professional journey

01:38 - Cassidy and Emily's origin story

03:47 - Cassidy's personal side

05:02 - Cassidy's interest in personal finance

07:25 - College life and financial struggles

11:44 - Graduate school and career uncertainty

14:40 - First job after graduation

17:30 - Paying off student loans

20:14 - Transition to freelancing

22:41 - Impact of financial security

24:11 - Freelancing success

27:04 - Mindset shift and income growth

29:44 - Investing in yourself

32:04 - Wrapping up

[00:00:00] 

Transcript

Emily: Hi there. And welcome to another episode of the finance girlies podcast. Today, we're going to dive a little [00:01:00] bit into our personal stories to give our listeners the chance to get to know us a little bit better. So Cassidy, you want to start us off?

Cassidy: Yeah, definitely. So a little bit about me before I dive into my story professionally, I am a freelance personal finance copywriter. So I write a lot of articles for personal finance publications like Forbes advisor, AOL market watch, USA blueprint and a bunch of others. And this is actually how I met Emily. So spoiler alert. She is also a freelance finance writer. We have a lot of the same clients. Oh, this actually has me thinking, Emily, do you remember when or how we first met?

Emily: I do. Do you?

Cassidy: Okay. I was thinking about this earlier today. And I, like, for the life of me, could not remember a time when I was freelancing and didn't know you. I was like, when did our paths specifically cross? So I [00:02:00] I dug back through my calendar to see, like, when we started having these coffee chats and I dug back through my email to be like, what, what prompted this whole thing?

And I did not remember it. Like I knew it was through Write Your Way To Freedom, which is the copywriting course we're both a part of, but I couldn't remember exactly like, what, what is your memory of how we first met?

Emily: So I think I had been writing in a different niche and was not 100 percent happy with it and was interested in getting into personal finance and writing for financial companies. And so I connected with Hillary, a mutual friend of ours, who is also a personal finance writer. And I think she was kind of the bridge between us. I think she had suggested I reach out to you as somebody else to talk to. And then I think I just sent you an email one day.

Cassidy: You did. I just read it today. So we, Emily and I for years now have [00:03:00] been having these virtual coffee chats for once a month. And these coffee chats started in November, 2021.

Emily: Oh my gosh. Wow.

Cassidy: That's like, almost three years ago, as of the time of recording, next month is our, like, friendshipversary. but yeah, I was reading the email earlier, and you were like, hey, I've been in Write Your Way To Freedom, and I'm looking to like, get into the finance niche, I'm currently in the outdoor space, like, I don't know, can we, can we set up a time to chat?

And I was like, absolutely. Look at us!

Emily: Now we're doing a podcast. 

Cassidy: This podcast. A little segue because it got me thinking, what was our origin story? But yeah, so Emily and I both know each other through freelance copywriting and that is kind of the professional side of me, the personal side of me. I think I've also been influenced by Emily over the years because some of my favorite hobbies are crocheting and knitting.

This is one [00:04:00] thing that Emily and I have bonded over, especially. This year whenever we saw each other in January, I was like, you're, you're going to hear more about this and Emily shares her story. But one thing that I really, really, really, really admire about her is just that she is so good about making her life what she wants it to be and then fitting work in around that.

I'm like borderline workaholic. Like if I do not have something to pull me away from work, I will just work all of the time. And that's something that I'm trying to unlearn. So earlier this year, I was like, Emily, I think my business goal for 2024 is just to like, try to be a little more like you and find some hobbies.

So I started crocheting and knitting. I live in the Pacific Northwest, so I love to hike and explore. My favorite food is fried chicken and potatoes. Not that I eat them every day, but I love them. And I have two cats that I absolutely adore. That's a little bit about, I guess, just like the personal side of me.

But I think maybe next I can talk [00:05:00] more about just like how I got interested in personal finance. Okay. So the funny thing is, I don't really ever remember a time that I like wasn't interested in personal finance. And I think that this is because like growing up, so just for context, my parents separated before I was born.

They lived about 45 minutes apart my entire life, so I always grew up in these, like, two very different households that struggled with money in, in each of their own ways. And I had one parent who ended up filing bankruptcy when I was in high school because of, like, mounting consumer debt. I had another parent who was better about avoiding debt, but, like, never really had more than $20 in the bank account, just, like, really struggled to make ends meet. And I want to be clear, like, my parents did the absolute best job that they could, and I'm so, so, so, so grateful for each of them, but I just saw, like, all of the stress that they had from [00:06:00] not being able to pay the bills, from having a lot of debt, and from an early age, I was like, I don't think that I want this for me, and as a kid, I didn't know how I would not have that for me, but just from an early age, I'm like, I'm, I'm going to try to do different.

At the same time, I had an aunt and uncle who I was very, very close to growing up. And they were really good with money. From my kid eyes, it seemed like they never had problems, at least financial problems, which I know probably isn't true. But as a kid, I was just like, man, it seems like they have so much peace in their household.

They were always like very open and honest about paying for cars and cash and they were like working really hard to pay their mortgage off early. And they were very set on like all debt is bad debt, which now as like, a 30-something, I know that that's not necessarily true, but I think they planted that seed in me from a middle school age to where I was like, okay, I really want what they have [00:07:00] like more than the financial stress that I'm seeing with my parents. So I'm going to really try to like avoid debt. So I can have more of this like happiness and joy that that seems to be going on.

And so like, yeah, I think from an early age, I was like, whenever I get to college, I'm going to try to take on as little debt as possible. Like I'm going to try to get through life in that way. So that was kind of my plan. I did know in college that I would take on some student loan debt, but I was very grateful to have a, like a full scholarship that paid for my tuition.

So just for some context with that, I ended up graduating college with like $18,000 in student loan debt. But I grew up in Georgia and Georgia has the Zell Miller program, where if you are the valedictorian or the salutatorian of your high school and you go to a public university in the state, they'll cover all of your tuition for you. Yeah, it's a super, super cool program. I was still responsible for fees, room and board meal [00:08:00] plan, textbooks, all of that, which still adds up over time in college, the average cost of college, or the average, like, student loan debt for college is over $37,000 now. So it still adds up, but by comparison, $18,000 for an education is a steal compared to like the average student loan debt in America.

So yeah, whenever I got to college, I was trying to make it my plan to just take out a few student loans as possible. So a lot of times what I would do every semester is I would take out like the max subsidized loans that I qualified for. And then I got a part time job to help cover the rest.

And so my very first day of college, I went to class in a pantsuit because I had job interviews lined up on campus that day. And yeah, I just remember being, like, dead set on finding a job as quickly as I could so I could have enough money to, like, pay for my living [00:09:00] expenses and everything that my, like, scholarship wasn't covering.

Emily: What kind of job did you have in college? Because I also had a job in college, but I did not wear a pantsuit.

Cassidy: I, okay, I don't, I definitely did not have to wear a pantsuit in hindsight. I think just like growing up, everything you learn about job interviews, I was just like, you, you have to dress to the nines, you know, like you have to. I don't think it registered in my brain that like, oh, I can probably just wear like nice normal clothes and people will be like, oh, she's a college student.

It's fine. I was like, I got to put on my pearls and... 

Emily: Always going the extra mile.

Cassidy: I guess. So but yeah, the very, I, oh, my gosh, I remember having the hardest time finding a job in college. I felt like I applied for dozens of on campus jobs and did tons of interviews before I finally got hired somewhere. I think it took until, like, November for me to get a job.

And I was like, actively looking. I started applying for jobs before I even moved to campus in August [00:10:00] and my first job was at the Chick-fil-A on campus.

Emily: Yum.

Cassidy: Yeah. Yep. I was a cashier and I worked there through that next summer. And honestly, I remember it being so, so hard. The Chick-fil-A that I worked at, we had won awards like every single year in a row for having like the most sales of any, like, non-standalone Chick-fil-A, because you could use your meal plans there. And there was just always a line. I felt like there was always at least 50 to 100 people just like snaked through the student union waiting to place their order.

So the moment you clocked in, you were just like, go, go, go, go, go, go.

Emily: Wow.

Cassidy: And, it was a lot. So that next summer I was like, I gotta, I gotta get out of here. This, this is not for me. I have mad respect for anyone in the food service industry. It can be exhausting. But then I got a job on campus at the library. And that's that's what I did. I was a [00:11:00] student worker at the library from the summer after my freshman year through grad school.

Emily: Oh my gosh, wow.

Cassidy: I stayed there forever. Loved it. Loved the lady. I worked for. She became like a second mom to me. Loved the other student workers in my department. It was honestly the best job and I have nothing but like fond memories from that time on campus.

Emily: Sorry, I got us off track.

Cassidy: No, that was a great question. Yeah. So I graduated college. Yeah, with $18,000 in student loan debt, probably like $13,000 or $14,000 of that was from undergrad. And then the other, like how, whatever is left over, $4,000 to $5,000, was from my graduate school. So after undergrad, I went to graduate school to get my MBA master's in business administration.

But even then, like this kind of deep seated frugalness was beginning to set in, in me because the term like being [00:12:00] a broke college student is so true. Like you can be grinding, working like part time, however much. But you still have all of these college expenses and you still have room and board and you still have to feed yourself and all of these other things are happening.

So even then I was like, I'm trying to keep my expenses as low as possible. I honestly don't know that I would have gone to grad school had I not been able to like get a graduate assistantship to pay for most of it. Because even then I was truthfully, I was like, I don't know what the payoff is going to be for me going to grad school.

I felt like I was buying myself more time because I didn't know what I wanted to do after undergrad. Did you have similar thoughts like after undergrad?

Emily: I would say I had no idea what I wanted to do until... yeah, like, I remember senior year applying to all.. well, maybe not even applying, but, you know, kind of considering all kinds of things. And then when I found my job, it felt like, oh yeah, this is what I want to do. But yeah, before that, it was kind of like, I have no idea where I'm going. I [00:13:00] think that's common.

Cassidy: Yeah, I think it's common too, but I honestly felt, I think at the time like something was wrong with me because I didn't have this very clear plan for what I wanted to do after undergrad. And I think that's because I graduated from my high school as valedictorian, and I think all of my life I've really found my identity just in being a really good student.

And so, like, I knew I was going to college. That wasn't even a question. I was like, as soon as high school is over, I'll go to college. But through that, I wasn't really having to think about, like, what I wanted to do with my life after college. Really, my only job up until that point was to be a good student and make good grades.

And I was like, check done. I can do that. So in undergrad, like, I didn't really have anything. I was super passionate about. I ended up getting a bachelor's degree in public relations with a minor in business. And even as I was going through that program, I was like, I don't really know what I want to do with this.

Like, I don't think I want to work in [00:14:00] PR. And so whenever graduation was nearing, I was like, well, I still don't really know what I want to do. So I guess I'll just go to grad school and maybe by the end of grad school, I'll have it figured out. But for anyone who's ever been in an MBA program. It is a business degree, but it's also like a generalist business degree.

Like you take a class in marketing, you take a class in business operations, you take a class in statistics, you take a class in finance. And by the end of it, I was so confused. I was like, I do not know what I want to do with this degree. I thought I would be like, Oh, I want to be in marketing or I want to be in finance.

And yeah, I just remember feeling very confused. So. After I graduated, I just started looking for jobs in the area that I lived in. I lived in you what would consider very much to be just like a college town where most of the jobs were at the university, and there wasn't a whole lot going on outside of that, unless you're willing to drive an hour to like the next biggest city.

So I ended up getting a job on campus as an academic advisor. So I was [00:15:00] like, my first full time job out of college. I really loved it. I did it for almost two years. I loved my coworkers. I really loved helping students plan out their schedule and like kind of charting a path to graduation and figuring out what they wanted to do, but the job only paid $32,000 a year which at the time when I was a grad student, I was making $750 a month. So $32,000 a year was so much more money. But at the same time, like, I quickly realized how limiting it was. You know, I, I think I got paid biweekly and after insurance and HSA contributions and mandatory retirement contributions and fees to park on campus and all of that stuff, my biweekly paycheck was $850.

Emily: Oh my goodness.

Cassidy: And it just, it wasn't a lot. 

Emily: How long did it take for like the excitement and the initial, like yeah, I don't know. Excitement about the first salary to wear off?

Cassidy: Truthfully, paycheck number one.

Emily: [00:16:00] Really? Wow. 

Cassidy: Yeah. Because whenever you do the math on $32,000 a year, that's like 2,660-something dollars a month. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's so much. And I knew that I wouldn't be taking home all of that, but I was like, surely I'll be taking home at least 1, 000 per paycheck if I'm getting paid twice per month, right?

And maybe that was just like naive of me to think as a 22, 23 year old. But yeah, I just remember logging in and seeing my first paycheck and it was like 800 -something dollars and I was like, what? This is it? I worked 80 hours for $850. Yeah, so really from there, I was like, that was a big wake up call. It's almost like a core memory in my mind of me seeing that first paycheck and being like, whaaa?

So yeah, I, I also knew at the time so I was married. I still am married. It was not just my salary. My husband graduated like a year before I did. He also got his first full time job working on our college campus because once [00:17:00] again, we were in very much a college town. And his salary was $40,000 to start.

And so with our two salaries combined, it, it was enough, you know, like it was enough to pay our bills. But like, we also had bigger things that we wanted to accomplish in life. We both had plans of living outside of Georgia. We had both grown up in Georgia and we wanted to experience another part of the country.

So we had plans of like moving to a bigger city somewhere, like maybe out West. And I also had the plan of paying off my $18,000 in student debt as quickly as I could. Because at the same time, my belief still was "all debt is bad debt, so like, I need to get this paid off as quickly as possible." I also, like, we weren't really saving any money at the time.

Maybe we had like a thousand dollars in a savings account and that was it. And I also was feeling like very stressed about money. So I just knew that like something needed to change for us to feel more financially [00:18:00] comfortable. And so I knew that like as much as I loved academic advising, it was not the end goal for me.

There was like no way to work your way up. You know, usually in a job, maybe you start out at an entry level and then you're able to like work your way up through some type of career path to earn a higher salary. Academic advising, at least at the time where I was, there was no upward trajectory, like you're an academic advisor and you got paid 30 something thousand dollars a year, or you got another job doing something else. That was it. 

Emily: Pretty much from the start you knew you had all these other goals? Like moving and paying off your loans. Was that right away or was that like a little ways into your job?

Cassidy: No, it was right away. I was married in grad school. And so there was a period of time where like we were living off of my husband's like 40, 000 a year salary plus the $750 I made and we were like [00:19:00] able to get by on just that amount. And so one of my goals is like, well, whenever I get my first, like, full-time job, maybe we'll just keep trying to live exactly as we are, same standard of living, mostly on his salary.

And then I can use the money that I'm making to, like, start paying off our student loans and doing all of these other things. So, like, I did take my very first paychecks and, like, start putting those toward my student loans. And I ended up paying off my student loans in 10 months after graduating grad school, because I was just redirecting money. We also had two cars at the time. We, we worked at the same place, same hours. So we sold one of our cars for like $3, 000 and put that toward my student loans. And just, yeah, we were like very strategic in the beginning of like, we're going to get this gone as quickly as possible.

And then, I don't remember us like ever having a conversation of like, oh, we're going to try to move soon. But we were renting an apartment as one does after college. [00:20:00] And I don't know, just one year we were like, well, our lease runs up in February. Should we just try to like move somewhere versus continuing to stay here?

And we were like, sure. That sounds like a good end date and so I just started looking for other jobs. I was like, what else can I do besides academic advising? I was looking up academic advising jobs in Seattle. And most of them were paying like maybe $45,000 a year, which is more than $32,000. But whenever you live in a very, very high cost of living area, I was like, I don't, I don't think if I continue down the academic advising track, it's really going to allow me to like save money and pay off debt and like do all of these things that I wanted to do.

So I was really, really, really, really trying to think more outside of the box in terms of what I could do. And that's when I landed on freelancing. And so I started kind of like putting all of the pieces in place to start freelancing a few months before we moved. I  bought a course, the course that Emily and I are both a part of that kind [00:21:00] of teaches you how to build a freelancing business.

I bought that course. I started making my website and creating a portfolio and figuring out what clients I would want to pitch to and all of that stuff. And then once we moved out to Seattle, I was like applying for jobs at like banks and colleges and stuff like that. But I was also trying to build my freelance business.

And honestly, the freelancing side of things took off way quicker. And that's kind of how, how that took off.

Emily: Yeah. Did you know right away you wanted to write about finance?

Cassidy: No, I think I was stuck between two niches. One was personal finance but the other one was like zero waste, minimalism, like that whole kind of thing. I was very, very, very interested in that at the time and I think that does go hand in hand whenever you're living like a more frugal lifestyle, trying to spend as little money as possible. You are just like, naturally thinking about ways to live like the simplest life possible. So I'm really glad I went with [00:22:00] personal finance. I think the like tipping point for me as I was really trying to think about which one of these topics could I like write about on end every single day and never get tired of, and it ultimately ended up being personal finance.

So I think I also knew that everything I learned for a client or like wrote for a client, it could then turn back and benefit my own life in some way, right? It's like, you now have that knowledge yourself. So it just seemed like more of a natural fit.

Emily: Yeah, so, I'm just curious for you, like, why is personal finance something you feel like you can write about day after day, year after year, and not be tired of it, and then want to go and start a podcast about it too?

Cassidy: I think it really goes back to those moments that I talked about and in the beginning of like what I witnessed as a child. It's like whenever you're stressed about money, whether like you are stressed or you're like watching a parent be stressed or a loved one stressed, it bleeds into every single part of your life and I saw this play out with my family. Like they were so stressed [00:23:00] about money that it affected the jobs that they said yes to, the number of jobs they had to have to make ends meet. My mom worked three jobs until I was like in 11th grade, she always had at least three jobs, like a full time job, and then she cleaned churches on the side and then she would stock shelves at night at Walmart. Like, she always had all of these jobs and so like that affected her ability to like have free time, you know it affected what she was able to buy the grocery store, it affects like whether you're able to go to the doctor when you're sick or not, it affects where you can live, it affects who you choose to date and whether you choose to like stay in a marriage that's potentially harmful or get out of that marriage. Like, it affects so many parts of your life.

And so I really think that like having financial security, that is something that every single person deserves to experience in this life. And to have enough money to design a life that you love [00:24:00] versus just feeling like you have to do whatever it takes to get by.

And I really think that's like what, what keeps me going.

Emily: I love that.

Cassidy: So, fast forward in time. I've been a freelance writer for finance brands. I got my first client in March 2019. So it's been, what is that? I can do math.

Over five years. I honestly believe that the best thing I have ever done for myself, professionally, personally, financially is taking a chance on freelancing.

And I'm very interested when we dive into your story to hear your thoughts on this, but growing up, I think because I saw my parents have such little money and like, they worked so, so, so, so hard for the money that they had, I thought I was also destined to work a lot for a little bit of money all of my life. And that's not something I felt bad for myself about. I just like, accepted it as my reality. Like, even in college, I was like, I will [00:25:00] probably be making thirty something thousand dollars a year when I graduate, and that'll be really great, because I'll be making that much money with one job, whereas my mom worked, like, three jobs for that much money.

So I was like, that is fine. I thought maybe by the time I got close to retirement age, I would be making maybe a hundred thousand dollars a year. I was like, I could see myself getting from, $30,000 a year to $100,000 a year, a year over the course of a 30-year career. I was like, that's probably possible for me.

And so I think just my like perception of what I felt was possible for me was very small and I didn't realize it was small. I was just like, this is how it's going to be for me. And I'm okay with that. And then I started freelancing in 2019 and I felt like things were just exploding in a good way.

Like I remember starting out freelancing and being like, maybe within six months or a year, I'll be making like the $32,000 a year I made as [00:26:00] an academic advisor. I was like, if I can just replace my old salary, working for myself, instead of working for someone else, that's the golden ticket. Like, that's all I need.

And I got my first client in March, and by May, I, I had made like my first $2,600, $2,700 a month, which was what I made per month as an academic advisor before taxes. And I just remember being like, dang, it took me two months to get here, and I thought it would be more. And then later on that year, I was having $5K months.

I mean, it just like really, really, really started to take off and it only took like about two years for me to pretty much triple what I was making as an academic advisor. A few years ago, I started making over $100K like, and things are just exponentially grown since then and, it, like, I'm just I'm so amazed and so grateful and so thankful. And it's really changed my [00:27:00] perception of, what it takes to feel financially secure. And what I mean by that is, when I was in college, working as an academic advisor after that, I thought, my lot in life is to make thirty something thousand dollars a year, so I need to be as frugal as possible in my life, so I have more discretionary income to put toward all of my goals, you know?

So I was so focused on, like, cutting and scrimping. And being really, like, smart with the resources that I had so I can make my dollar stretch further and that's really, really good but at the same time there's only so much you can cut from your life because you still need money to live off of. And so therefore, like, you can cut, but you're only going to have so much money to put toward your goals, and it's going to, like, you know, it can happen, but it's just gonna take a while.

Emily: Yeah. 

Cassidy: I did move to a higher cost of living area. So, of course, my expenses inflated, I no longer live in Seattle, but for the five and a half years that I did live there I lived in [00:28:00] the same exact apartment with the same exact rent, paid off my car, still have the same car I've I've had for like the past seven years, you know, it's like I've really tried hard not to inflate my lifestyle too much but to live comfortably and then my income has grown.

I've just had more money to max out my 401(k), fully fund an emergency fund, set up a vacation fund so I like, have money to take vacations when I want to. Just all of these other things. And so it's really shined a light on the fact that, yes, it is good to cut out where you can and what you can, but honestly, like one of the best things you can do for your financial situation, if money feels really tight right now is try to find ways to increase your income.

And you may hear that and think, well, increasing my income just isn't in the cards for me. And to that, I would say, I hear you. And I see you. Because that was my mindset. Truthfully the Cassidy who had just graduated college, if [00:29:00] you would have said to her, one of the best ways to like reach your goals is just to try to find a way to increase your income, I would have been like, that's good advice for someone, but that's not possible for me. So what other advice can you give me? And I really think that that belief has been, like, undone and rewritten just from finding examples of other people who have increased their income, like either through freelancing or whatever.

If you don't want to freelance, you know, find, find someone who has a similar story to yours who is doing something and making a good living doing something that you could see yourself taking a chance on doing yourself. And yeah, that's been like one of the biggest aha moments, I think.

Emily: Was it a hard decision to decide to start freelancing? I know that we both took the same course that got each of us started and it wasn't an inexpensive course. So, like, how was that decision for you at a time when you were, like, used to being so frugal? How did it feel to, like, make that [00:30:00] decision and spend all that money on yourself?

Cassidy: Yeah. So I think I was so desperate because I had the hard deadline of being like, we are moving across the country in three months and academic advising is not going to be for me moving forward. Like, you need something else to do. I think that was a really big motivator. And then also I do think coming like right out of college, I was very much in the mindset of, I could purchase this course, and if I treat it like a college class and do all of the homework that's given to me and try to be a good student, right? Like, I was definitely still in the mindset of being a really good student. I was like, if I can just do everything that's in this course and try to be like the teacher's, quote-unquote, best student, then hopefully it will work out.

Um, and it did. So, yeah. So I think that mindset also played into it of just being like, I'm going to treat this like a college course. I'm going to take it really seriously.

Emily: You knew you [00:31:00] were a good student.

Cassidy: Right. Another thing that I talk about is just the fact that, like, everyone has these different coping mechanisms that they use for both, like, the little T traumas and the big T traumas that they've, experienced in life, we all turn to different things, and, I'm honestly curious, like, I don't know how we end up with the coping mechanisms that we have for things, but like, from an early age, one of my coping mechanisms was always school.

I was just like, I'm going to be a good student. And if things aren't good, then I can at least be good at school. And like that's it, you know and I don't know why that has been my coping mechanism in life, especially as a kid, but it was, and I'm very grateful for the randomness of it, or however, however it ended up, so,

Emily: Well, thank you for sharing your story. I'm sure in future episodes, we'll dive more into some of the specifics, especially around our money beliefs. But [00:32:00] yeah, I always love hearing your story. It's inspiring. 

Cassidy: So we will, end this episode here, and then in the very next episode, we will have a conversation with Emily about her story.

We all have very, very different money stories. So if there is anything in my story that really resonated with you or like brought up a thought in your head or a past memory that you forgot about or just anything like that you can share it with us, share it with a friend... We really want this podcast to feel like a community and we don't want it to just be a one-sided conversation where Emily and I are talking to each other on one side and then you're just over on the other side. So yeah, if there's anything about this episode that stuck out to you, we, we would love to hear it.

Emily: Yes.

[00:33:00]