Unpacking our money beliefs

In this episode of The Finance Girlies, Emily and Cassidy unpack their lifelong journeys with money—from childhood perceptions shaped by family and experiences to adult financial habits. They discuss the swings between spending and saving, the impact of early financial fears, and the challenge of finding a healthy balance. 

00:00 - Introduction to money beliefs

01:48 - Early money beliefs and first jobs

03:39 - Family influence on money perception

07:01 - Frugality and spending habits

12:26 - Money as a motivator

22:45 - Investing fears and overcoming them

29:45 - You are not bad with money: Developing financial skills

37:46 - The importance of money in achieving goals

42:04 - Facing money fears and taking action

52:02 - Reflecting on money beliefs and next steps

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Cassidy: Welcome to another episode of The Finance Girlies! On this episode. Emily and I are going to be talking [00:01:00] about our money beliefs, and these are long term money beliefs we've held since early adulthood and childhood, as well as new money beliefs we have developed over the years as our financial confidence has strengthened.

Because our money beliefs are so baked into how we ultimately handle our money, we thought it would be beneficial for us to just have a very casual, open, honest conversation about our own money beliefs, just so they can serve as inspiration to you, and just as a reminder that we're all kind of in this together. And whenever we talk about some of these, like big, scary things that are going on in our minds, they give them a little less power and control over us. So I'm going to pass it off to Emily now to dive into our first belief.

Emily: Yeah, so, one belief that I used to have and, Cassidy, I know you and I share this belief is that I would never earn a lot of [00:02:00] money, and my first job out of college was kind of a prediction of how things would go for me forever. And I know this belief came from a few different places. 

One, I think it's really easy to look at your salary and equate your worth with that number. And maybe it's not a direct correlation, but seeing that number, for me at least, kind of signified like, oh, this is what my work is worth. And it just felt kind of like concrete, like there was not much I could do about that. 

Another place I think this belief came from was just like the reputation of my college major and like what, you know, people with my background were doing for their careers. I studied environmental studies in college and I absolutely loved it, and like, do not regret it at all, but there was kind of that vibe within the program that, you know, there is no high earning job you get directly out of school with [00:03:00] this degree. And like, good luck finding a job. I don't really know if it was that dire universally, but it was a bit of the feeling. I think for anyone with anyone who had a similar major in college, I think you can probably relate to that feeling. Yeah, but Cassidy, I know you share this belief, so where did it come from for you?

Cassidy: Yeah, I feel like you and I kind of bonded over this shared belief when we realized it was something that we had in common. So I also believed that I would never be destined to make a lot of money. And I didn't feel bad about it. I just thought this is my lot in life. Maybe when I graduate college, I'll find a job making $30,000 a year and I'll be happy with that because that's about how much my parents made and I was like, they raised multiple kids on that income.

I don't have any kids. I just have two cats. So like, I'm good. And I thought that maybe by the time I retired, I would have [00:04:00] worked my way up the career ladder to be making like $100,000 by the time I'm 60 or 65. And that was just kind of my mindset. I also think that this mindset just came from the fact of, for a lot of my family members, that was about how much they made.

So I didn't really have any examples in my life of people who made what society would consider like a really great income. And so, I knew from an early age that like, I was more well off compared to my parents. Like, neither of my parents went to college. One of them didn't complete high school, but then later went back to get a GED.

So I just thought, by and large, by me, being able to go to college, like I was already doing better, right? Like everyone wants better for their kids. And so I just thought the salary really doesn't matter. Even if I make as much as they did, I'm going to be working less hard for that money. So. It should be okay. I should be grateful because I'm not having to do, [00:05:00] like, the back-breaking work that they're having to do to earn that much money. And therefore, I should be good.

Emily: This reminds me of, and I don't know if you have this belief, I don't think it's come up as something we've talked about, but have you ever listened to Ramit Sethi's podcast?

Cassidy: I have not, but I’ve read his book.

Emily: So, in his podcast, he interviews couples who are like, having issues with their money, either like logistically, like paying for everything or they're just like not in agreement on how to spend their money.

But in more than half of episodes, he asks like, what would you need to fix this problem? And the answer he gets is we just need a little bit more money. And I remember like, even though initially I wasn't dissatisfied, like you were saying, like, you'd be lucky to earn $30K. I wasn't initially dissatisfied with my first salary out of college but I did like, start to have that feeling like, oh, if I just earned a little more, like if I [00:06:00] just earned what my boss earned or my supervisor earned which looking back was also not a high goal to shoot for, if I just earned that much I'd be fine. So I think I like, I heard a little bit of that and what you were saying, like if I just earn $30K I'll be fine. It's like easy to have that sometimes arbitrary number that you're shooting for and not really have any, reason behind it? Or maybe you have a reason, but it's not a good reason, you know what I mean?

Cassidy: Yeah, for sure. And I, I think whenever you're stuck at a certain rung of the salary pole, for lack of a better metaphor, it's so easy to even look at the rung like right above you and to be like, my life would be made if only, if I'm making $32,000 a year, I would look at a co worker that made $40,000 a year and I would be like, Oh my gosh, you have it so good.

And you know, having more money, you are able to do more things. There's less financial strain there, but still, people who are making $40,000 a year are [00:07:00] still struggling.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah, then, so the next money belief I want to talk about is that a lot of spending is frivolous. And this was a belief, I don't know. I mean, I still maybe have this belief a little bit. I'm working on it, but I definitely like when I was younger this was in a lot of ways, how I thought about money.

And I'm trying to think of where it came from. I think my parents have always been pretty frugal. I don't know, that Midwestern frugality runs deep.

And I think just like years of seeing them be frugal in a lot of ways, like really smart with how they're spending, like, at least from my perspective, I think that rubbed off on me.

Like they would, call the phone provider to get a slightly better deal. 

Cassidy: Were they usually successful?

Emily: Yeah, Yeah, actually I was like, just talking to my dad about this recently. And did it for myself. But yeah, I didn't spend a lot of money as a kid and I just am not like a natural [00:08:00] spender. 

Yeah, I feel like for the most part that served me, and so it's hard to kind of ditch the belief that spending is frivolous, even though I — and we'll get into this later — like I fully believe now that money is, in many cases, meant to be spent. That's what it's for, but yeah, is this something that you also have dealt with?

Cassidy: Yeah. So one thing for all of you listening, Emily has had a savings account for what, since you were a kid? Like as long, as long as you've been receiving money for birthdays or whatever, you have been setting aside most of it or part of it in a savings account. Which I think is so cool. I was not that kind of kid at all.

I was the type of kid to where… I'm gonna paint a picture for you. I'm in fifth grade. I wake up on Christmas morning. I get a hundred dollars. I'm going to Walmart that very next day to spend all of that one hundred dollars on random stuff and as a fifth [00:09:00] grader it was mostly new stuff for my hamster.

Like my hamster would be getting a new cage, all the coolest toys, all the treats, Like $100 gone and I would be like, yes, going back home, going to trick out my hamster's cage. Like, he's going to be the coolest kid on the block. And that was really how I spent like any money that I had never saved any of it.

It wasn't until I got to college I really felt like, okay, financially, I, I feel like I am on my own and I'm really, really afraid of being in debt. So I really need to change my ways and watch what I'm spending. And then as most humans tend to do, I feel like you swing one way or another, right?

It's like you see what your parents did growing up and you either fall in their footsteps or you swing to one extreme. And then you have to kind of watch the pendulum swing back in the middle and find a happy balance over time. So I went from not taking on debt because I was a kid, I didn't have a credit card, [00:10:00] but just like never saving any money that I had whatsoever to being in college and being really afraid of debt and feeling like I need to save every single penny that I have because that penny could be gone tomorrow.

And so, I got really deep into, minimalism, into, like, the zero waste movement and it became to the point where, even spending money on the cheapest shampoo at the grocery store, I didn't want to do. I, like, went through a period where I was really, really, really trying to train my hair to do, like, the no poo method, like, the no shampoo method, so I didn't have to spend money on shampoo.

I was trimming my hair myself because I was like, haircuts aren't a necessity. I can do this myself and it felt, I think debilitating is too strong of a word, but it, felt really scary to give myself permission to spend money on anything, and that became very unhealthy. I do think that it served a purpose because at the time, I was [00:11:00] still earning $32,000 a year.

And I was also trying to like, save money, pay off the student loans I had developed and do all of these things. Like, it served its time and place. But, yeah, now the mind, the mindset I think is similar to you. It's just that, you know, to an extent like you need to meet your financial needs and you need to be saving for the future, but also you do not need to neglect yourself in the process of doing that. Because you hear so many stories of people who are doing the F.I.R.E movement or who are saving aggressively for retirement and then they die unexpectedly, or they find out they have cancer.

And like all of these things are just put into perspective for you, for just how short and fragile and precious life can be. And so you don't want either extreme, you don't want to get to retirement and not have any money saved because you spent it all, but you also don't want to get to retirement and realize that you have all of this money saved and you never allowed yourself [00:12:00] any, like, modicum of joy in getting there because you deprived yourself of everything in the pursuit of saving money. So there's, like, this happy balance that needs to happen.

Emily: We'll get to talking about some fears later on, but I think that's one that's come up for both of us, is like, how to balance spending and saving so that you enjoy today without sacrificing security later on in life, which I think is kind of what that belief is getting at. 

Cassidy: Yeah, for sure. 

Emily: I want to share, I think, a couple more and then we can dive into any of your long-term money beliefs that we haven't covered. So, one of those for me is that money, isn't that motivating to me? And this is something I still kind of identify with, but I think the way it used to present for me is that money isn't that important to me, so like, it's okay if I don't earn a lot. 

Or, it also kind of plays into like, wanting money isn't something I want to admit or like [00:13:00] identify with, and once again, so like, it's okay if I don't earn a lot. I think this comes from just the societal narrative that's so widespread that like, if you want money, you're greedy. And if you have a lot of money, I don't know. It's, like, icky. I think that's just, I can't really pinpoint that to a specific source or experience, but I think that's a pretty common belief that a lot of people have.

Cassidy: Do you feel like part of it, to some extent, ties back into the job that you had out of college? Because it sounds like people almost took pride in being able to get by on so little.

Emily: I think definitely. 

Cassidy: Like it was almost a rite of passage.

Emily: Yeah, I think that could have contributed. So if you haven't listened to our previous episodes, my job out of college was working as an environmental educator at a nonprofit. And I worked with a lot of people in their early twenties and thirties who were super passionate about the work they were doing and like, all these [00:14:00] outdoor activities, we were living in the mountains and people were really into skiing and hiking and rafting and all that kind of stuff.

So like money, I don't know, it was kind of like, we don't have money, but we don't need it because we have all of these amazing experiences that, you know, we don't need to spend money on. Yeah. So I think that definitely contributed in that way, but I'm sure I had this belief to some extent before then.

Cassidy: Mmnhmm. What was your perception of your parents finances Growing up, did you, seems like you…. 

Emily: I was going to say, I don't think I thought about it much. I knew that they. Were at least in my eyes, financially savvy. Like I thought of them that way and I still do. But I also don't think explicit money conversations were not common. There wasn't like not much direct talk about money. However, I think they found ways to like teach us kind of more implicitly.

Cassidy: Mmhmm

Emily: Is that a belief you had too?

Cassidy: You mean just that like having money is [00:15:00] icky? No, it actually wasn't. So I grew up in like, very conservative, Christian, right, the South, where you're taught that you can't take anything with you when you go. So, material possessions really shouldn't matter to you that much. So, I did think that I should be able to get by and live a very fulfilling life without having a lot of money. But I think that I also already had examples in my life of what having money could allow you to do. So for example, and I mentioned this whenever I was sharing my story in a previous episode, I had an aunt and uncle that were almost like a second set of parents to me and they did not have kids and they're really the ones who put these little like seeds in my life, how your life could be if you're like a little more financially stable. And they did have very open conversations with me about like, [00:16:00] we're living off of PB and J's for the next few months because we're really trying to pay off our mortgage early or like, we need to buy a new car, but we're not going to buy a brand new car. We're going to buy a used car. And like, here's the research that we're doing. And like, here's how we've saved up. Like we, we've pretty much been paying ourselves a car payment, even though we don't have one. So we have enough money to pay for a new car. So they were talking openly with me about this stuff.

And also they were the people that I could turn to, like, I remember my freshman year of college, I was really trying to only take out, like, the subsidized loans that I qualified for. And I remember my second semester of college, I was gonna be, I think, like, $1,500 short. And so I went, I remember I was so nervous. Like I was going to have a conversation with them. I'd worked myself up and I was going to be like you know, can I borrow this money from you and then pay it back? And like, we can work out an interest rate. We can do all of that stuff. And I like met them for breakfast one morning and I [00:17:00] was like, super nervous. I'm going to have this conversation. And they had talked it over and they were like, we will give you the money. But you don't have to pay us back. Like we're in a financially stable enough spot to be able to do this. It just seemed like the purest form of like kindness and generosity. And I just remember thinking like, I truly, truly hope that one day when I'm older, I'm in a position to just like randomly drop $1,500 in their mailbox and be like, thank you for what you did for me all of those years ago.

And so I don't think that I necessarily viewed money as icky. I just thought that I should be able to get by without it and that if I was ever in a position to have it I would want to use it to like really pour it back into my family’s lives, my friends’ lives. 

Emily: Yeah. I love that perspective. It's crazy how, like, that one, experience or like those two people in your life just like kind of shaped this belief that you have that money isn't evil. Cause I think a [00:18:00] lot of people,I mean, like me, I don't think it's evil, but I think there is a narrative around that that's like prevalent in society. Yeah.

Cassidy: Yeah, it really is.

Emily: Okay one more belief from me. And this is one I still have to date. And unlike the other ones, it's not completely negative. And it's that everything will always work out financially. And been trying to think about where this belief came from and I don't have a full answer, but I think, like I was saying earlier growing up, I, think I just had this view of my parents and how they manage money in a way that was like, again, it was mostly like behind the scenes. Like I, I don't remember many direct conversations about money, but the feeling I had as a kid was that everything will always be okay, even if they didn't maybe explicitly say that. Yeah, and I feel very fortunate to say that. And I think I carried that [00:19:00] through my first job and COVID, losing a job and like, not really knowing what's next. Which is funny because I think I'm like, in many cases somewhat of an anxious person and a worrier and that is like, for me to have this perspective I feel like is, I don't know. It served me well and I hope to continue to have this belief.

Cassidy: It almost seems to me like this belief that you have that everything will work out financially has also played a role in this other mindset you have that just like money isn't everything. Like I'm, I'm going to leave time and space in my life for the hobbies and the people that matter to me and not feel the drive to like, run myself into the ground with work specifically because everything will ultimately work out.

Do you feel like those two are tied together in your mind?

Emily: Yeah, I do. When you said it, that became clear.

Cassidy: Yeah. And honestly, I feel like I'm also having a little mini revelation [00:20:00] about myself right now because that is the mindset that I've told you a million times I adore the heck out of you for because I do not have that. I'm always like, I've got to take every assignment that comes my way. I've got to work, work, work, work, work.

I think subconsciously it's because I think that like, this money may not be here tomorrow. I may not have this opportunity again. This could all go away. It could all dry up. And I think that stems back to a childhood belief of thinking either one in different periods of my life. Like whenever I was really young and still living with my parents, the mindset was, if you have money, spend it. ‘Cause it may not be here tomorrow, and then whenever I got to college, I swung really hard to the opposite side of that and being like, this money may not be here tomorrow, so I really, really, really need to save it.

Like, I need to save every single penny that I have, because this could all dry up and be over. And even as my, like, financial situation has changed over the years, my income has [00:21:00] stabilized through freelance writing and all of this stuff, I think, I think that that belief is just like so embedded in my psyche that a lot of times I have to pause and remind myself, you have enough evidence in your life now that even when money dries up, it will come back so you can pause and like create more space in your calendar and everything's going to be okay.

I think that's a belief that I really have to almost repeat to myself like a mantra, you know, I don't think it's really embedded into my life the way that it's embedded into yours. But I'm really, I'm trying to make that shift.

So it is really inspiring to hear just like how all of that has kind of threaded through your childhood and adult life and then now in your career.

Emily: Yeah. I mean, and that's not to say I don't worry about money. We'll, we'll get to that.

But, yeah. I'm glad that's helpful for you. It's interesting, though, how you said you've had this same belief throughout your [00:22:00] whole life, but the way it's manifested and how you act with money could be like polar opposites Like, spending all your money or saving all your money. I've never really thought about that before how these beliefs can like lead to vastly different behaviors depending on how you interpret them.

Cassidy: Mm hmm.

Emily: That's interesting.

Cassidy: And I feel like getting to a point where you find a happy medium is a real sign of growth, you know, if you're growing as a person that you recognize that you don't have to be one extreme or the other, but that you can strike a balance that really works for you.

Emily: Yeah. Are there any money beliefs that you've had for a long time that I didn't touch on? 

Cassidy: There was one more and this money belief really started to develop once I started down this, like, financial journey. My first kind of like introduction to the finance space, because I did grow up in like a very conservative Christian environment, was Dave Ramsey.

So whenever I first started getting my finances in order, I was going through [00:23:00] his baby steps, which is like build a starter emergency fund for a thousand dollars, pay off all your debt, then go back to maxing out your emergency fund until you have three or six months of expenses, that whole shebang.

As I started going down that path, I was so afraid to take the step past my emergency fund of, like, actually investing in something else. I really did feel like my money was safest in a savings account where it was insured, where it could not drop a single penny below the balance that was in there.

And I think that this also stemmed from, Once again, I didn't have any examples in my life of people who were investing. To my knowledge at the time, even my aunt and uncle, as I was growing up, they never invested maybe outside of like a 401(k) or something. They also believed that their money was safest in a savings account.

There were also threads of these beliefs of like, investing is gambling. I remember [00:24:00] hearing stories in high school from like my economics teacher about, you know, after the great recession people losing every single penny they earned in the stock market. There were horror stories of people investing all of their money in a company like Kmart and then that company going bankrupt and then them losing all of their money that way.

And so even though, I mean, I was a finance writer at the time for years, like this was my job and I knew all of the facts about how beneficial investing was and how important it was to start early, like whatever early is for you now is early, no matter your age. But I, I could not bring myself to do it because I just had this embedded belief that my money was safest with me.

And I couldn't let it go. But ultimately I just, I think I got to the point where I was like, this is a little bit silly. You now have all of this knowledge and proof of like, safe ways to invest in the stock market. And so I was like, you just need to start small and do it. And as you do it, you'll feel better about [00:25:00] it. And so now I have been investing for years. And I feel a lot better about it, but it was, it, it took me a lot of years to get to the point where I felt like I could do more than just save money in a savings account.

Emily: Was there like a specific turning point? Like, do you remember the day or the moment when you were like, I'm ready to invest?

Cassidy: Mm, yeah, I think I was biding my time a little bit because initially I was like, well, I have a three month emergency fund, but maybe it should just be six months, like, just in case, so then, like, we, saved, my husband and I saved until we reached that milestone and I was like, okay. And then at that point I was like, well, it's like, we technically still have our car, like we could pay it off. So then we're like, okay, we'll pay it off. So then like once everything was paid off and we had no more debt and our emergency fund is where it's at and we just had extra money that we were saving but nothing to put it toward, I was like, I think it's time. Like we just need to figure out how to do this.

But we were just really smart [00:26:00] about it. And one of the smartest ways to invest your money is through index funds. This is not investing advice by any stretch of the imagination, do your own research. Index funds are inherently much safer than investing directly in stocks because instead of investing in one single company like Apple or Walmart or Amazon or something like that, you're investing in essentially a bucket of like the top 500 in the U.S. if you do something that tracks like the S&P 500, but there are these indexes that track particular like buckets of stocks or bonds or whatever. And so by buying one fund, you're instantly spreading your money across dozens or hundreds of different things. So like if one fails, you still have the rest of the bucket to carry you.

So that's kind of the strategy that we took and it has been working out for us. 

Emily: Yeah, I think a lot of that fear, because I, I know you're not alone in that fear, stems from the idea of investing as like buying individual stocks and how risky that can be because that can [00:27:00] be risky. And investing is risky, inherently risky, but there are much safer ways to do it where you don't have to equate it to gambling because you're making these really smart decisions.

So yeah, I'm glad that you've been able to overcome that hurdle. I think that's like a tough thing for a lot of people who maybe don't grow up with any examples of people investing in their lives.

Cassidy: Yeah, one of the biggest realizations I've had about myself over probably the past six or seven years is that I am the type of person that needs examples in my life of people doing anything that I want to do. Like I need physical tangible proof that this is possible and someone else is doing it to just kind of stretch my mind of my reality and like what my life could look like.

And I know that that's really vague, but for example, even as a freelancer, When I started out, I, you know, was charging like 8 cents a word, which would [00:28:00] break down for a 500 word article to like $40, you know, and that was what I started because I was like, this is so scary, that number feels in line with what I was making when I was earning $32,000 a year, like it, you know, all the articles added up that I could possibly do in a week and a month, I was like, that gets me close to $32,000. I think that's good. And it wasn't until I met all of these other people who were also writing in finance making way more than that, writing an article that I was like, okay, I guess maybe I can make more than that too, if there are already other people doing what I do, making more.

So it's just, yeah, and it's been like that for so many different areas of my life.

Emily: Mm hmm. I relate to that too. And what's crazy is I feel like you have been that for me, in, especially in regard to like freelance writing, because you kind of got into this a little bit before I did and have reached some crazy milestones that are inspiring. So you are also that person.

Cassidy: Thank you. It is interesting to know that you can be both things at once. Like you can [00:29:00] still need the inspiration from people who are on past you, and also you can be that inspiration for the people who are coming up behind you.

Emily: So true. So do you want to switch gears a little bit? I know we've covered some of our newer money beliefs, but maybe dig into those a little bit more.

Cassidy: Let's do it.

Emily: Do you want to kick us off?

Cassidy: Yes. And these new money beliefs are, and I think the same will be true for Emily, things that we have developed over time. Mostly through experience, right? It's like we have now been actively trying to better our financial situations for a decade plus. And it's like, these are kind of the lessons that we've learned along the way, or like the new beliefs that have developed as a result.

Would you agree? Okay. And so the first belief for me is truly that regardless of your financial situation and regardless of like this narrative that is playing on in your head, you are not bad with money. Even if objectively on [00:30:00] paper, you're like, but Cassidy, I have $20,000 in credit card debt and 30 plus thousand dollars in student loans and a car note and all of this stuff.

Like, I don't know how to manage my money. I'm definitely bad at it. On paper, that may be true, but truly, truly, money management is a skill that you have to learn and develop over time, just like you most likely learned to drive a car when you were 16, or you learned to tie your shoes when you were a kid, or you learned to ride a bike.

I think it is a societal flaw that we have been conditioned to believe that we are either born good with money, or we are born bad with money. And your lot in life is your lot in life, and that's simply not true. I don't think that financial literacy is something that is being taught in schools the way that it should be. And so you can't be faulted for not being given this information when you were a kid to be able to make these better financial decisions when you're older. [00:31:00] I think for most people in the United States, you have to make a lot of mistakes and then you realize, okay, I think I need to learn more about this or start doing better. Like, money management is a skill. And if you don't have that skill yet, that's okay. You now have the power to, start developing that skill.

Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. I think getting good with money is something that you learn and if you don't see yourself as being good with money, it's just because you haven't learned the skills yet. Just like anything else. I think this ties in nicely to one of my favorite money beliefs which is that anyone can make positive financial changes in their life, regardless of where they're starting. And I think that first step is like you said, recognizing, okay, I've made some mistakes or I haven't been quite as good, like good with my money. I think I could be doing better. Or I haven't, I haven't learned this yet. I need to fill some knowledge [00:32:00] gaps. But starting there can and will improve your financial situation, regardless of the mistakes you've made in the past or like wherever you're starting.

Cassidy: Yeah. Okay, this actually ties into another one of the beliefs that I have, and it's that the financial habits you build now matter more than the income that you earn. Because we've all heard stories of people who make six figures and still don't have enough to cover their bills. The second they lose their job, they're essentially in financial ruin because they're living so far outside of their means.

And so really whatever your income is right now, focusing on building those good financial habits, no matter what that looks like, those habits will pay off as your income continues to grow. And I actually see threads of this, Emily, and you talking about your parents, like, calling up the phone company or the internet company or whoever to try to, like, negotiate a better deal on services.

That is a habit that all of us can [00:33:00] develop no matter what our income looks like. Yeah, that's like the one example. Are there any other examples that come to your mind? Of like how habits no matter your income…

Emily: Yeah, like, for me, when I first started investing for retirement, right out of college, I did not have much money to work with and still was able to set up an automatic contribution every month. And, it wasn't a lot, but it was like, one, it was something to get kind of the ball rolling, but also I had that habit of contributing every single month. And so as my income has grown, I've been able to proportionally increase that contribution every month. And, save more than I used to. I was not making a ton of money when I started that habit, but it's still, I got over that hurdle of like, okay, how do I open a Roth IRA? How do I make a contribution? How do I invest the money? Like all that was taken care of because I already had developed that habit. So, I think there are a lot of examples [00:34:00] of how that plays out and how that's true. That's the first one that comes to mind for me.

Cassidy: I had a few more examples as you were talking, I feel like you've opened a little floodgate in my mind, but even if you have credit card debt, you're trying to pay off. For example, if right now the only thing you can do is $10 above whatever your minimum payment is, build the habit of paying extra, even if it's just the extra $10.

And then let's say your income increases by $10,000 a year. And all of a sudden you're like, okay. However that breaks down into my paycheck that I'm being given every month or every other week, I'm going to reroute all of that extra to going toward paying off this debt because like I already have this habit in place and now I have visual evidence that I can pay this debt off even quicker if I simply just have more money to put toward it every month.

That also applies to building your emergency fund, right? It's like you can only set aside 20 a month right now. Go ahead and set aside the $20. If you're in a better financial position down the road to be able to save more, [00:35:00] you will have the opportunity to do that, but even if six months from now you have a hundred and twenty dollars saved up and then all of a sudden, I don't know, a smaller emergency happens, you have $120 that you can use to put toward that emergency that you don't have to then go and charge fully on a credit card or something like that.

Emily: Yeah, and I think all of these habits compound, which is something that you hear a lot of talk of in personal finance is the power of compounding. But like, the habit itself is worth more than whatever it is that you're doing. So like, if you start investing even a tiny bit of money or you start saving a tiny bit of money, it's going to grow exponentially over time.

So just getting started with that habit is similar to like, getting started with saving for retirement. The earlier you start, the more time it has to grow.

Cassidy: Mm hmm. For sure. And then I did have another money belief written down, but I think we've already touched on it maybe in its entirety, but it's just that wanting to be rich doesn't make you a greedy or a gross [00:36:00] person.

Emily: Okay, I'll dig into mine, if I can find them. Oh, one of mine, and you might relate to this, is that you don't have to work yourself to death to earn good money or to feel like you've earned it. And, I think there are a lot of examples in our society and maybe, in family and friends, and people that we know of people who work really, really hard and maybe they earn a lot of money or maybe they don't. But especially in our country, I think there's just this belief that hard work is really important. And laziness is bad. 

Cassidy: Yeah.

Emily: And I mean, there's been all sorts of conversations about that I think specifically in relation to how jobs and work have changed post-pandemic, but we don't have to get into that. But, yeah, something I've come to believe is like. you don't have to work crazy hard to earn money, and you don't have to work [00:37:00] crazy hard to feel worthy of getting paid. I think it's important to balance your work with whatever else is important to you in life, and yes, hard work is important and sometimes really necessary, but I don't think it's necessary to, like, work yourself to the bone all the time in order to earn a living.

Cassidy: I'm so glad that there has been this shift from hustle culture into this More of like, rot culture. Like, it's okay to slow down and just chill and go for a walk and stare at the leaves and think, wow, this world is so beautiful. And then move on about your day or to have a hobby that you only keep for yourself and don't try to monetize.

Emily: Yeah. Okay, one more belief I have developed is that, kind of piggybacking off my previous belief that money isn't that important, my new belief is that reaching your goals is generally [00:38:00] a lot easier if you have more money. Not to say that more money will make you happier, or solve all your problems, or make you stop worrying about your finances, because I know that none of those are true necessarily, but money isn't bad because it helps you do good things. If, you know, like, if you're trying to go to college or pay for healthcare or therapy or, I don't know, buy higher quality foods to, like, feed yourself more nutritious food. All of these things are easier if you have the money to spend.

Cassidy: Yes, it is amazing how much having money can really turn what would be, like, really big issues into just the slightest inconveniences. Like, I live on the opposite side of the country than all of my family. And my family had a medical emergency back in April. I got a call one morning and immediately I was [00:39:00] like, I'm going to hop on the first plane today and I will be there and it felt so good to not have the financial worry on top of all of the other worries I was experiencing at the thought of like losing this family member, right? My only thought was I don't care how much it takes, I will, I will be there today to see you. And like those, I don't know, I feel like when you have money, it allows you to do what you want and do what aligns with your priorities rather than living in this like constant fight or flight mode where you just have to do anything that it takes to get by and you really need life to go in a certain way for you to be able to feel like you have a grip on it.

But life is unpredictable and uncontrollable and there are always things being thrown at you. So I really don't think that having money makes you greedy or gross. Like we all deserve to have money because really what it's going to allow you to do is more of the things that align with your values. And if your values are trash, you'll probably get more money and do trashy things. But if [00:40:00] your values are really good, then having money is going to allow you to do more of those really good things.

Emily: Yeah. I think there's like a couple ways to think about it. Like what you were saying, having the financial stability to like buy a flight if there's a family member in need and like you need to go see them today that's one amazing Benefit and then on the other side like having the money to cover other, you know more small daily inconveniences just, like, frees up your mind to, like, I don't know, solve bigger problems, like be creative and just enjoy your life more. So it's, like, it helps you solve your problems, but it even goes beyond that. It, like, frees up mental space, time. All of these things that, I feel like, allow you to have a more meaningful life in a way.

Cassidy: For sure. I mean, even just in terms of like you've mentioned before that you got laid off from your job during COVID, and I won't speak on behalf of what your financial situation was like then, but if you [00:41:00] didn't have an emergency fund or any type of savings to fall back on, you would have desperately needed to find any job that you possibly could, as soon as you possibly could, like you were sent into that fight or flight mode where you need to do anything it takes to make the money that you need to keep living, but if you have a savings to fall back on, you create some breathing room for yourself where, I feel like you can process all of your other emotions, you know, if you have time to actually grieve the loss of just losing this job that you're completely blindsided about, but also you can take the time to be like, well, what do I want to do from here? What type of job do I want? If a job doesn't necessarily feel right in the interview, I still have money to fall back on as I pursue better fitting options or possibilities

Emily: Totally. And I don't know that I would have found, I mean, maybe eventually. But I felt like I had the space once I had found the opportunity with freelance writing to really, like, give that the time that it needed to develop into  a fully-fledged career path, had I not had a bit of a [00:42:00] financial buffer to fall back on. So that's a really good point.

Cassidy: Yeah.

Emily: Do you want to talk about money fears? 

Cassidy: Yes. There are two, I think, current ones that have been on the forefront of my mind. One of my fears is just that I'll save too diligently for years, I'll be too tight-fisted, and then I'll die before it's time to spend it, so it will have essentially, like, been in vain.

Is this a fear that you have at all?

Emily: It’s funny, I feel like I swing back and forth between this fear and the opposite of that, which is that I'll spend too much now to enjoy life now and I'll fall behind on retirement savings.

Cassidy: Yeah. Have you ever used, like, a retirement projecting calculator thing where you, like, input all of your stuff now, and then it tells you what it would be in, say, 30, 35 years?

Emily: I haven’t, and I know that's a smart thing to do, but I haven't done it.

Cassidy: I think doing that is honestly what [00:43:00] helped me loosen my fist a little bit because I think it, if you're thinking, I'm going to need a million dollars to retire, I'm going to need 2 million or 3 million, whatever the number is for you. If you're like, I'm going to need this much money to live on in retirement, I think our gut instinct is to think that means you have to save that much money. And that's not the case, because as we've talked about, it's the power of compound investing. The earlier you start, the less money you yourself have to save to reach whatever that goal is. Because the rest will just be compound interest that's been created, or compound returns that's been created over decades.

And so I think that was like really the first wake up call for me. It's just to be like, okay, I've been maxing out my 401(k) every year for the past few years. This is how much I have in my emergency fund. This is how much I've saved just in a regular investment account. It's like, you’re good, you know.

So I think that has honestly helped me a lot. Otherwise, I would be like, [00:44:00] I still don't have nearly enough. I need to save, save, save, save, save.

Emily: Yeah. What's your other fear?

Cassidy: Oh, the other one is this fear that maybe I'll never really feel like I can afford to buy a house. And this might be a fear that a lot of people in our generation have right now, especially as you look at how inexpensive housing was compared to the average income, like back in our parents and grandparents day especially like living in a high-cost-of-living area, I just feel like anytime I look at houses in this area and what the potential monthly payment would be on a house, even with a chunky down payment, I'm just like, I… I don't know if this is in the cards for me. And then also there's the whole concept of do I even want it to be in the cards for me? Do I only want to own a home one day because that is the American dream that's been fed to me and is renting actually okay?

And you know, it's a whole jumbled mess.

Emily: Yeah. So [00:45:00] is the fear that you wouldn't, you might not be able to afford a house, or is the fear that you just, you could afford it, but you couldn't swallow the monthly payment? Or do you not know?

Cassidy: I think it's a little, I think it's a little bit of both. Like anytime that I do one of those calculators and it's like, based on your income, this is the mortgage that you could afford. I see the number and I'm like, there's no possible way I would ever feel comfortable spending that much money on housing.

Emily: Yeah, I, like many Millennials, I'm sure, resonate with that fear a bit. Yeah. That's a big one.

Cassidy: Or it's like the housing that you do feel like you can afford to buy now is, it's not what you would think it should be for the amount of money you're spending. So it's like, why would I send that much money on just a very typical, small, outdated…

Emily: Mm hmm. Money pit.

Cassidy: You know, you know.

Emily: Yeah. We'll have to get someone on the podcast who can speak to owning a house, maybe, and that process.

Cassidy: Yeah. [00:46:00] What are some of your money fears?

Emily: Another one I have, and I wonder if, you relate to this at all, is that because I'm a personal finance writer, and I write about banking and loans and investing and all these topics for a living, I have no excuse to make any financial mistakes.

If I do, I don't know, I'll be called out on it, or I'll like, get laughed at? I don't know.

Cassidy: I was just going to say I also agree with that fear of just being like, there's extra eyes on you if you do make a mistake and people are going to be like, she's a fraud. She has that much money in her savings account, she's not investing?

Emily: Yeah, that's a real fear. And I think, you can't assume about someone else's financial situation because everyone's situation is unique. As much as, like, we may share the same fears and mindsets and overcome similar hurdles, like, your relationship with money is personal. And [00:47:00] so, it's one of those things that, like, feels really vulnerable and, like, scary to be judged about. 

Which I think is why so many people are afraid to talk about it and afraid to, like, share their problems or fears. So, that's one of mine. Another is this fear that, like, my success as a, I don't know, in my career, in my finances, is solely due to my privilege and not, to like, hard work. And that I don't know, if it comes down to it, will I be able to like, do what I need to do to take care of myself? And like count on myself to do these things? Yeah, that's another.

Cassidy: Yeah, I think both things can be true, right? Like we have been afforded certain opportunities because of our privilege, and also you have worked really hard to get where you are.

Emily: Yeah, I think you're right. That both can be true. Sometimes it's hard to parse them out, but I do think you're right. I think it's also interesting to think about, think about, like, how [00:48:00] we work through these fears? I think we've kind of touched on it, but, like, when you're in a spiral of, am I saving too much or I'll never be able to buy a house, how do you tend to these fears and, like, move forward?

Cassidy: Mm. I think whenever a fear comes up for me, I try to bring all of the facts forward, and like, use logic to sort through them, which once again, sometimes our emotions and fears are irrational. So there's really no logic that can calm them down. Like you just kind of have to sit with them and be kind to them.

I do think it's helpful to trace back, like, where is this fear actually coming from or what belief or experience is it actually rooted in? Similar to what we did earlier, you know, like this need to save every single penny. It's like, okay, whenever I sit and think about it, it's rooted in this fear that my money could go away at any time.

And then it's like, what is that based in? And then you dig back a little further and you can get to the root of it that way. And I feel [00:49:00] once you think through that whole thing, you can look at it a little more objectively and be like, okay, this fear is coming up for me because of this past experience. And also, this is not my current experience. And then, like, working through all of that. 

I also think taking really tangible steps, like I'm really afraid that I won't have enough money saved for retirement. So then it's like, okay, pulling up a retirement calculator and figuring out, based on how much I already have saved and how much I can continue to contribute reasonably until I retire, this is how much money I'm projected to have.

Do I think that I could live on that? Yes or no. And then you can use that knowledge to then adjust and be like, okay, maybe I can hit the brakes a little bit and start spending a little more money on myself, not deprive myself so much or vice versa. Like maybe I need to temporarily work a little bit harder to be in a better spot.

What about for you?

Emily: Yeah, I think, I'm definitely still working on it. And like, still all these fears come up, but I think [00:50:00] talking with other people, like talking with you, talking with my husband, even exposing myself to like other financial conversations where people are talking about these things helps a lot. Again, like, one of our goals is to help people feel like they're not alone in their money struggles, and it's so true that just kind of getting your fears out there, whether it's just for someone else to say, like, oh, me too, like, that can help immensely. 

Or, someone with maybe a little more of a level head around a certain subject can kind of, like, talk you down a little bit. Or, like, help you look at things objectively. So that's one thing that I've found very helpful. Another is just, being proactive, seeking out the information that I need to tackle a specific fear. So like, your advice to use a retirement calculator, probably something I need to do that I've been putting off. But yeah, like, planning ahead goes so far when it comes to [00:51:00] your personal finances, and just having that peace of mind that like, you're working towards a goal, whether that means you're putting money away for retirement every month, or you're putting money into an emergency fund every month, or you're paying off a little bit of your debt every month. 

Generally speaking, if there's something that I'm nervous about, I tend to feel better, learning about it and then just taking the next right step. 

Cassidy: It's like, when I, right after college, I really felt like I was living paycheck to paycheck. I would just feel spender's guilt, even over things that I needed to buy, like groceries. I don't know. I just, I felt like I never had enough money. And so I did get to the point where I was like, what can I do about this?

Like, I'm really sick of feeling like this. And that's when I started using a budgeting app to track my income and expenses. And that, I learned so much about just myself and how much income I actually had coming in and what money I was actually spending every month. You have so much knowledge and then you're able [00:52:00] to chart a path forward.

Emily: Definitely. 

So after listening to this episode, we'd love for you to take a few moments to think about some money beliefs or fears that you might have and try to figure out what your next right step will be to either alleviate that fear or start adapting that money belief into something that's a little more helpful for you moving forward. If you feel stuck, like you don't know what to do with your fears, they're overwhelming you, or your money beliefs aren't serving you, feel free to send us an email and we'd love to give you a little bit of specific feedback.